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Why the PPC and High Heat Weapons are BROKEN (Math as to why inside) - good read for a new player


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#1 Abrahms

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 10:25 AM

Here are a few basics to help understand why the Gauss, LRMs, SRM, and small laser are dominating. (TT means TabeTop - which are battletech rules)

Heatsinks are generally 1 heat dissipated over 10 seconds. Battletech had 10 second turns. MWO uses all of the damage and heat statistics from Battletech, except for a few changes.

LRM/SRM damage is doubled or more,
Large lasers got +1 dmg -1 heat (large pulse too)
PPC got -1 heat,
Medium and small laser got +1 heat.

May be a few other miscellaneous changes, or ninja buffs/nerfs, or additions of diminishing returns, but generally, these concepts hold. Generalizing is OK for now because Im going to illustrate an overall concept that shows why balance is off. Also, armor has been doubled.

MWO also roughly has tripled rate of fire. In Battletech, a PPC, Gauss, Small laser, and SRM all shot every 10 seconds.

Lets round rate of fire to 3.33 seconds. For example, the PPC is 3, and the Gauss is 4, but for simplicity I will use 3.33.

In Battletech, a PPC weighed 7 tons, and generated 10 heat. It also did 10 damage. So, 3x PPCs did 30 damage every 10 seconds, and weighed 21 tons + generated 30 heat. So, if a mech wanted to remain heat neutral, it needed 51 tons. Mechs dont have to be heat neutral, but its a good balance point because the more you stray from heat neutrality, the less efficient each PPC is, up to a point that is severely harms your DPS in a game with doubled armor.

Lets subtract 10 tons for engine heatsinks, its 41 tons for 3 heat neutral PPCs. You could then drop a few HSs to right slightly warm, and weight 37ish tons for 3 PPCs and fire very often.

In MWO, rate of fire has tripled. So, in each 10 second window, you can fire each PPC three times. So can basically every other weapon in the game. So, you now generate 90 heat in a 10 second window. MWO changed heat to 9, so now its 81 heat in MWO. + 21 tons = 102 tons for 3 heat neutral PPCs in MWO. Lets - 10 for the engine, thats roughly 90 tons for 3 heat neutral PPCs. Now of course you dont have to run heat neutral, but when you compare TT to MWO, the PPC weighs a little over DOUBLE what it did in TT for the same/similar proportions/effect.

The Gauss on the other hand only generates 1 heat. So, 2 gauss = 30 damage. Each gauss is 15 tons * 2 = 30 tons for weapons. Then add 4 tons of ammo for each gauss, so 8 tons + 30 = 38. Then 2 heatsinks is 40 tons for heat neutrality. -10 for the engine only brings it to 38 tons because heatsinks make of far less of the weapon platform's weight. In TT, 30 damage alpha from a PPC, or a Gauss with enough ammo to last all match, weighed about THE SAME​. However, in MWO, with tripled rate of fire, the Gauss can fire 3 times in the 10 second window just like the PPC, but now it only generates 1 heat * 2xgauss * 3xshots = 6 heat. The gauss platform just gained 4 tons in required heatsinks. Meaning, 44 tons for heat neutrality, again brought back to 38 by the engine HSs.

As you can see, two weapon systems that were fairly balanced in TT are now COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. The PPC is terrible, running at around 50% of its TT power, but the Gauss is working with maybe a 5% loss, which can be totally negated by engine HSs.

THIS IS WHY WE CANT HAVE NICE THINGS. This is why there is no weapon diversity. This affects EVERY WEAPON in the game, however, by using a low heat vs high heat weapon, you can really see what tripling the ROF did to proportions. Heatsinks still weigh 1 ton, and still dissipate at 1 per 10 sec, just like tabletop, so for every point of heat a weapon generated it now weighs 2 more tons per point. When you only have limited weight for weapons, you want to maximize your damage for your respective role. You want to know a weapon's weight, its damage, its heat, so that you can make the most of that weight. TT was fairly balanced, MWO is not at all. The devs have known about this for months, as the Beta FORUMS were on fire about this. There were 20 page threads about it. They dont care, it keeps TRIAL mechs useless ovens so you buy a mech...

Farm to a mech as fast as you can, and exploit the low heat weapons. Gauss, and small lasers. Missiles are powerful too because they are medium to low heat and have had damage doubled with improved tracking. My Atlas DDC with 1xLRM20 and 2xLRM15 + 2k ammo and enough heatsinks to fire all day just melts mechs. Can 4 shot an assault mech if he doesnt have an AMS umbrella.

Edited by Abrahms, 09 December 2012 - 05:36 PM.


#2 Keifomofutu

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 10:27 AM

Small lasers are getting a pretty big nerf. And with the crazy lagshield going on the go to weapons are now SSRM, LRM, and gauss for all around efficiency. Although expect jenners of any number to eat your gausscat alive.

#3 Abrahms

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 10:32 AM

View PostKeifomofutu, on 03 November 2012 - 10:27 AM, said:

Small lasers are getting a pretty big nerf. And with the crazy lagshield going on the go to weapons are now SSRM, LRM, and gauss for all around efficiency. Although expect jenners of any number to eat your gausscat alive.


Yeah buts that is mostly due to lagshield more than weapon balance. Of course when direct hits dont register, and its impossible to lead because the lag is inconsistent (so ever changing lead distance) then LRMs and SRMs take the throne because of auto-guidance.

.

#4 valrond

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 10:34 AM

Thanks for the post again, Abrahams. It looks like PGI don't even play the game, because the consecuences of their actions are pretty clear: In most custom mechs, certainly all of the mechs that try to be competitive and not try some things, there are just 4 weapons that are being used: Gauss, LRM, SSRM and SL. The rest are either worse, much worse, or simply unusable (like the ER PPC).

And now, they show us again that they don't even know basic maths. They double (2x) de armor, but just 1.2x (now 1.4x) the ammo. No sense, of course. And they do the same to double heatsinks (2x) and make them 1.4x heatsinks, so we make sure the game stays with just those 4 weapons.

#5 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 10:43 AM

You could also do the match for an AC/10 - it's a worse weapon that then the Gauss, but in the table top,it's pretty directly comparable to the PPC normally. Some people may just conclude from your example (because it's so many paragraphs, who wants to read all of that) that you just want to say "Nerf Gauss". But "Nerf AC/10" will not match preconceived expectations and they may start thinking and reading.

Also, if you're a good beta tester, there will be a patchmas and the easer bunny may also have something in store for you.

#6 Sug

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 10:44 AM

View PostKeifomofutu, on 03 November 2012 - 10:27 AM, said:

Small lasers are getting a pretty big nerf.


Link?

I hear the same thing about pulse lasers and ssrms but I can't find any info in the patch/announcement forums.

#7 Vapor Trail

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 10:45 AM

View PostMustrumRidcully, on 03 November 2012 - 10:43 AM, said:

Also, if you're a good beta tester, there will be a patchmas and the easer bunny may also have something in store for you.


Chocolate jelly beans?

#8 Abrahms

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 10:47 AM

Well, anyone can see its based on heat generated. I could have use the ERPPC to show that an Atlas cant carry 2 heat neutral ERPPCs... but thats just overkill...

#9 Vapor Trail

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 10:48 AM

View PostSug, on 03 November 2012 - 10:44 AM, said:


Link?

I hear the same thing about pulse lasers and ssrms but I can't find any info in the patch/announcement forums.

http://mwomercs.com/...31#entry1335931

Quote

Heat Bug

Testing revealed a long standing issue with how heat was calculated for some weapons.[/color]
  • Total Generated was used as Heat Per Second.
  • The fix now calculates Heat Per Second based on Total Generated Heat.
This affects Small, Medium, Large Pulse Laser, and Small Lasers. They will now produce more heat when fired and work as originally intended.


Nothing about SSRMs getting heat changed.

#10 Abrahms

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 10:58 AM

!

#11 Keifomofutu

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 11:01 AM

View PostAbrahms, on 03 November 2012 - 10:58 AM, said:

!

METAL GEAR!

#12 80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 11:03 AM

Basically, actual DHS would fix this and people would consider using PPC's and ERLL since they could sustain fire with multiples of them.

1.4sinks are going to be garbage and people are still going to be using LRMs that do too much damage and Gauss Rifles that generate no heat and have no direct fire competitors (since AC10's and PPC's are worthless)

#13 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 11:28 AM

View PostVapor Trail, on 03 November 2012 - 10:48 AM, said:

http://mwomercs.com/...31#entry1335931

[/font]

Nothing about SSRMs getting heat changed.

I think there is another change in the works so that SSRMs do not always hit Center Torso. That may be reasonable, but I wouldn't necessarily conclude it makes them bad. Unless their dispersion becomes as terrible as that of SRMs.

#14 Abrahms

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 11:30 AM

If regular Heatsinks were 1.5 and double were like, 2.4, all the weapons would be a lot more balanced. The only other route is ditching TT

#15 Vapor Trail

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 11:31 AM

View PostMustrumRidcully, on 03 November 2012 - 11:28 AM, said:

I think there is another change in the works so that SSRMs do not always hit Center Torso. That may be reasonable, but I wouldn't necessarily conclude it makes them bad. Unless their dispersion becomes as terrible as that of SRMs.

Heard this too... however, don't have a ready Dev source for it.

All for it though. Makes the Streak Cat into the one trick pony it deserves to be.

#16 Yokaiko

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 11:33 AM

View PostAbrahms, on 03 November 2012 - 11:30 AM, said:

If regular Heatsinks were 1.5 and double were like, 2.4, all the weapons would be a lot more balanced. The only other route is ditching TT



In deed.

That OR take the weapon damages and heat down to match the increased firing rates.

Of course you would have AC2's that did .1 damage a shot for .05 heat.

View PostVapor Trail, on 03 November 2012 - 11:31 AM, said:

Heard this too... however, don't have a ready Dev source for it.

All for it though. Makes the Streak Cat into the one trick pony it deserves to be.



It was in an issues thread but I haven't went and looked for it.

Edited by Yokaiko, 03 November 2012 - 11:34 AM.


#17 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 11:50 AM

View PostVapor Trail, on 03 November 2012 - 11:31 AM, said:

Heard this too... however, don't have a ready Dev source for it.

All for it though. Makes the Streak Cat into the one trick pony it deserves to be.

Could be lost in the Beta "Archives"...

#18 Heretic1311

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 11:51 AM

Why is everyone constantly talking about 1 heat and 2 heat, as far as i remember, a Single Heat Sink dissipades 4 points of heat in 10 seconds, a double twice=8.
Given that, 1 SHS can totally neutralize a medPL (4heat) and overcooles a standardML (3heat). Did i get wrong somewhere? MW2+3 calculated the same, even MW4 did, just with some Mods for more actionoriented playing.
The main drawback of DHS is the bulk, they are 3 times larger by same weight (like 1 kilo feathers needs more room than 1 kilo lead).
Should it really be jut 1 heat neutralized in 10 sec per SHS, then energy weapons are not realizable in MWO, given the rate of fire they have here.

#19 Abrahms

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 11:53 AM

View PostHeretic1311, on 03 November 2012 - 11:51 AM, said:

Why is everyone constantly talking about 1 heat and 2 heat, as far as i remember, a Single Heat Sink dissipades 4 points of heat in 10 seconds, a double twice=8.
Given that, 1 SHS can totally neutralize a medPL (4heat) and overcooles a standardML (3heat). Did i get wrong somewhere? MW2+3 calculated the same, even MW4 did, just with some Mods for more actionoriented playing.
The main drawback of DHS is the bulk, they are 3 times larger by same weight (like 1 kilo feathers needs more room than 1 kilo lead).
Should it really be jut 1 heat neutralized in 10 sec per SHS, then energy weapons are not realizable in MWO, given the rate of fire they have here.

wut?

#20 Felbombling

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 11:55 AM

Continue fighting the good fight, Abrahms. Even though the weapon cycle rates are 3x what they are in TT play, when you get right down to it, the game is still a 10 second turn game with furious weapon fire moderated by cooldown periods. It just has the illusion of being a fast paced shooter.





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